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How is WDC affected by the disappearance of the "english" Professional competitors ?


onyourtoes Joined on 12 Φεβ 2007 Total posts: 657	Re: How is WDC affected by the disappearance of the "english" Professional competitors ? Τρίτη, 24 Φεβρουαρίου 2009 8:40 πμ jazz Yes, I am aware. Even Fred Bijster has reminded us that WDC had changed their ways, of not so long ago, when they have tried , and failed to push around and threaten their professional members - the failed action which was noted, copied by IDSF and which is now criticized for the implementation and use . In the absence of English influence should WDC be viewed as a worldwide and truly international entity which claims ownership over Professional and Amateur dance, the same way as IDSF is an international entity claiming sole ownership to the sporty side of the same ? ---- Jazz I am sorry but do you truly believe your words written here. IDSF had embarked on sanctions and bans and destruction of competitions long long before WDC made a knee jerk reaction in response to the formation of the IPDSC. It was strength and not weakness which very quickly led to the reversing by the WDC of a bad decision. WDC does not now and never has claimed to have sole or even joint ownership over Amateur dance competitors. WDC gives opportunities to Amateur competitors which IDSF refuse/deny them. jazz like Mr. Vanone who teaches the WDC greats . . ---- Love it that you think Mr Vanone is the sole coach of the WDC greats!! Hope too you are not forgetting Mrs Vanone. jazz Jazz does not believe it is the countries which "import" champions, but rather that the champions of other countries are taking advantage of their "champion status" , seeking improvement in quality of life, freedom, and looking for lucrative career opportunities. ---- Hang on a second. Now is Italy the new centre of World Dance or not? Are you suggesting Mr. Cocchi left Italy to find a new and better life in the USA? Actually considering what Mr Galvagno is doing to Italian dancing that might be true but then USA is hardly a solution. Will he be DancesportAmerica or NDCA? One thing he goes and judges the WDC Am League in Paris so I guess he must be WDC. jazz -Do yo want to suggest that Mirko, or Domminico ( for example ) do not support IPDSC just because you have not seen them in IPDCS event ? Is it perhaps they felt IPDSC event had not YET sufficiently high profile and their victory would be just too easy and not a challenge they deserve ? ---- Do you want to suggest that the two males you mentioned do not support WDC? More important can you substantiate? Even more important for me is how much I dislike the disservice you do these couples in suggesting they are so arrogant they dismiss anyone with less talent than themselves. "We are too good to dance against you". England is not the WDC which is a worldwide and truly international identity. Well in so far as dance is concerned which is truly a minority activity. There are many countries which have no interest in dancesport at all and no association/federation has a position in those countries. Are you sure you have correctly interpreted Mr. Bijsters words? I think not. I doubt you even remember the year of the Jens Werner affair and the background. You might hear but you learn little and that is the saddest thing. Pay less attention to the CDF propoganda. They thought they were going to become Canadas representatives (bad miscalculation) on the WDC and found themselves in no mans land and having to settle for 2nd best and taking orders from IDSF and their national members.
jazz Joined on 07 Απρ 2005 Total posts: 444	Re: How is WDC affected by the disappearance of the "english" Professional competitors ? Τρίτη, 24 Φεβρουαρίου 2009 1:02 μμ Onyoutoes, Jazz hopes you are not a vegetarian, because the day will come very soon you will be fed and will have to eat your own words, and they ain't a carrots & peas. Do you make no difference between a suggestion and a fact ? Why must you insist Italy to be the capital of dancesport, who said so ? Do you believe Mr. Cocchi has not left Italy to seek improvement in the quality of life... in USA ? Never mind his rich family background. Do you believe the journey was not to benefit him ? When a name is mentioned you immediately jump up and down claiming there are others....Jazz never said there were no others. Why bring Mrs. Venone into the picture ? Was his demo at the LaClassique a present, a free gift to the organizers for providing such a wonderful event, or was he paid as the pro should be ? Also, why keep on bringing up CDF ? Have you a chip on the shoulder ? It has nothing to do with the topic. Just because WDC recognizes one associations, and declined to accept another, it does not mean the association WDC recognizes is of a more significance to dancesport / dance , I would dare say that it has nothing to do with it. Even if, and this is just a suggestion, CDF represented 99.9% of Canadian dancers, WDC would still have the right not to recognize them. This is a question of pride and economics. If WDC fails to recognize CDF ( officially, since they certainly cannot close their eyes and ignore the importance to this new dance associations, which so quickly succeeded in enrolling significant ( I shall not use term majority, as you would probably claim there is a bunch of (unknown, unrecognized pros.) who never joined CDF ) and do not mind not benefiting from such a association, it makes not such a great difference to CDF - even though the association would be welcome, if only to show to their rival pro. associations, that CDF has done their job, crossed their T's, and are a dance federation to recon with. Their association with CADA and IDSF is just a natural and understandable result, and WDC refusal will certainly not make these associations any weaker - in business terms, another poor business move by WDC because their decision was not governed by logic and business savvy, but emotions and pride. Remember the evolution and natural laws. The weak gate eaten by the strong. Sure the weak can hide and eventually must eat. These are rather prophetic words, and the more you and others pick on CDF , stating they find themselves in no mans land, the more you increase there visibility and power. You will not change anything, neither will I, just do not put that bib away. CDF has nothing to do with my topic, just wanted to help you to better understand. Have you heard people saying the small dogs bark the most ? Why do you think that is ?) You hear a lot from WDC supporters, why is CDF so quiet ? ( answer: a big strong 'working group' dog need not bark ) Please do not lose sleep over this, this is just Jazz's opinion, not even worth your focused attention, besides Jazz comes from the noisy but clever and cute 'toy' category.
onyourtoes Joined on 12 Φεβ 2007 Total posts: 657	Re: How is WDC affected by the disappearance of the "english" Professional competitors ? Τρίτη, 24 Φεβρουαρίου 2009 1:24 μμ Jazz, from the bitter but not cute or clever category, My comments. Shame your words to Mr Bijster were so disineguous. You demonstrate the hypocrisy that prevails in the dance world and does so much harm. More hypocrisy when you ask about Mrs Vanone. Previously you took leave of your senses when only male names from partnerships were mentioned. Even the largest dog can be a coward never forget that part of the reason they do not bark. Another is the shame they feel. When a dog is bad it knows it and stays quiet. I am laughing how quickly you fly to the defence of CDF which was always the motive behind your posts. At least unlike you I speak with one voice at all times. I select very carefully the menus from which I dine so please have no fears for me on that account. At least you acknowledge you have no reason at all to doubt the strong loyalty to the WDC of the top competitors of the WDC but enjoy writing your own fantasy script. Even after you denigrate them by accusing them of ugly arrogance . To confirm yet again WDC is an international worldwide dance authority growing in support from Amateurs and Professionals who care and it most certainly is not England. You said so Italy was the capital of dance sport with your Verona Italian style comments etc etc. Have you forgotten already? P.S.2 points. 1. Ever wondered why IDSF wanted not a British Amateur Association but 4. England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? First it increases IDSF boasting numbers and second it divides. 2. Consistency in your comments. From post to post you change. It seems you are just argumentative and would even argue with yourself, Best advice STICK to the TOPIC OF YOUR TITLE:
jazz Joined on 07 Απρ 2005 Total posts: 444	Re: How is WDC affected by the disappearance of the "english" Professional competitors ? Τρίτη, 24 Φεβρουαρίου 2009 3:45 μμ No Onyourtoes, the word you searched for but could not find was "open-minded". Jazz does not recall naming Italy the capital of dancesport, or whatever it was you suggested. Jazz asked : "Which country will be the next dance superpower ? Can Italy be the one with the best dancers ? Can Italian style become the style to copy ?" In another post Jazz asked if Verona open could be the next dancesport Mecca. At no point was that a statement, which Onyourtoes is trying to suggest. Jazz recalled some of the WDC greats being instructed by Mr. not Mrs. Vanone , hence Mr. was mentioned and not Mrs. Jazz is not sexist, and if the Vanone family was involved, Jazz would try to mention all the Vanone relatives to be accurate and fair to all . That is not the case, and Jazz mentioned Mr. Vanone, not to single his name out, but to provide an example of just one of the many greats who not necessarily agree with your ideology that WDC is the only and the greatest. Just one example of many who love, support , help develop dance, care for and support dance pupils, and try play no politics ( at least not visibly to ordinary folks like Jazz) Why does Jazz defend CDF ? That's because no one else steps up to the plate, while there is a number of posters upset with CDF who continue to bring up CDF name even when it is not called for. See above. It was not Jazz who mentioned CDF in this thread, was it ? Jazz's response to Fred was sincere. How dare you ridicule and label ? Can a person like an apple and also enjoy an orange ( or another fruit ) at the same time ? Can a person like apples, but still recognize when the apple has a worm, or a decay, and before consuming it, cut the damaged part out ? Are you indeed so blinded , so limited ? Onyourtoes : " from the bitter but not cute or clever category, My comments." Indeed, comments from Onyourtoes bitter side... You are however observant and surprisingly correct that Jazz is able to argue specific points from different angles, hence is able, and indeed does argue her point with herself. Just as may be, and may be not, is meaning exactly the same thing, or is it ? Just as what Onyoortoes labels "best advice", Jazz first examines what "best" means when associated with " Onyourtoes". Argumentative ? Sure, why not, is it not exactly what Onyourtoes does while never forgetting to kiss up to WDC and their supporters ? Why not try to test the sincerity and say say good things about IDSF, CADA, CDF and all those you prejudge as bad for dance ? Why not say bad things and try discredit WDC, and you will see Jazz riding on a white horse defending your false statements, if found untrue and inflammatory. No, you possibly cannot understand this. For that you need be open minded, fair , flexible. Jazz was surprised by Sambatogo's thanks to Geronimo and to Jazz . It proved that Sambatogo was able to get over the names of the posters he may have disagreed in the past , and can acknowledge just the message , with no need to ridicule or call posters hypocrites. Onyourtoes : "Even the largest dog can be a coward never forget that part of the reason they do not bark." Is this the reason why Onyourtoes speaks out so bravely under Onyourtoes name, while Fred identifies himself ? Who is the brave and who is the coward ? Interesting how much easier it is to bark as a coward, and this does not apply just to Onyourtoes, but also to Jazz and many others. Such an admission does not speak too highly of us, but there is a reason for what we do. Is it not ? Indeed, some large dogs can be lazy, but still able to swallow a small yappy dog as if a strawberry. Since Onyoutoes appears to be editing and adding to his posts, thank you, let Jazz respond that Domminico and Mirko very much support WDC, their loyalty to WDC was never in question, their names were just provided to give example to show that the World's Greats, who just happen to be Italians, can get over the politics, and can acknowledge and show appreciation to those who helped them to become what they are today, their coaches, teachers and also IDSF .
onyourtoes Joined on 12 Φεβ 2007 Total posts: 657	Re: How is WDC affected by the disappearance of the "english" Professional competitors ? Τρίτη, 24 Φεβρουαρίου 2009 7:26 μμ Jazz I woild much rather talk about dance topics than personalities but you do make it hard. You respect and support Mr Bijster and the Dutch Open? Why start this topic at all? You must know of the position Mr Bijster holds in WDC. You must know you were attacking the WDC. Why pretend otherwise. You write jazz If you think WDC is not affected do you not think WDC is not affected by their professional members supporting, adjudicating, lecturing IDSF sanctioned events ? How about those severing the ties and openly joining IDSF movement ? ---- You must know,or is it still beyond your comprehension, that WDC have no problems at all with their members adjudicating, lecturing, and so termed "supporting" IDSF events, WDC do not need to worry about the loyalty of their members. WDC have made a declaration tthat their members may work where they wish. It has no affect on them. When you write How about those severing the ties and openly joining IDSF movement you will need to name names to identify these persons who have totally split from WDC. I can only think of CDF officials at the moment and they totally miscalculated and ended up with egg on their faces. You might also recall how loyal WDC personalities like Mr Schiavo, having been invited, were banned (courtesy Mr Galvagno) by IDSF from lecturing at their conferences. With regard to cowardice accusations. Let me clarify a few things. First I am a member so my name and address are well know to dancesportinfo. Second I have written under my own name letters to many people with leads to my posts on this forum so they surely know me. Third I have invited you to meet me in person at Assen 2009. Do you have the courage?
jazz Joined on 07 Απρ 2005 Total posts: 444	Re: How is WDC affected by the disappearance of the "english" Professional competitors ? Τετάρτη, 25 Φεβρουαρίου 2009 1:32 πμ Onyourtoes: I have invited you to meet me in person at Assen 2009. Do you have the courage? ---- Does Jazz need a courage to meet with Onyourtoes ? Is this a challenge, a test ? Is Onyourtoes dangerous , scary looking, scary acting ? Would Jazz need a bodyguard ( no that would not show much courage would it ), how about if Jazz brings along a 2X4, or a steel bat ? What if Jazz knows Onyourtoes mn considering 'him' as an intelligent, open minded person , someone who is known supporting IDSF ? When Jazz travels she seeks only positive experiences. Let Jazz consider and respond later, but first: What does Jazz's topic have to do with Dutch Open or Mr. Fred Bijster ? Do you have the topics mixed or confused ? How many times is it necessary to to repeat that WDC gave away their control, and have nothing to say about what they members do, where they work ? When is it going to sink in ? This is like praising Jazz for allowing Onyourtoes to bite nails, drink a 6 pack, stay in bed all day. This is exactly what you are doing when you are praising WDC. You say Jazz needs to name names. Onyoutoes criticized IDSF for directing/ordering their members. Jazz is not under Onyourtoes jurisdiction to accept any commands, and directions , Jazz need not do anything and can do everything ( just like the WDC members ) , and Quicktime better check the length of his chain before acting as those he is so critical of, and better act as the peace loving WDC and reminds himself and accepts he has no hold, no right to suggest what others need do. This is not an inquisition. So Onyourtoes is a member, whose name is known to the dancesportinfo. net owners. Good for you. Do you think the readers will make any effort to find who is hiding under Onyourtoes user name , bribe the owners to divulge users secret identity ? Why is it that Mr. Fred Bijster has not signed in as Snoopy , instead has spoken up and given a pretty good accounting under his real name ? Your explanation is unsatisfactory. Cowards hide under assumed names, and also have social security numbers, also have houses / apartments with known postal codes, some may even display a gold sticker. They also have a real identity - somewhere . Was there no reason for the real person signing on as Onyourtoes, or, is Onyourtoes the real name ? When in Assen, should Jazz be looking for a person on-his-toes, or ask for Mr. Onyourtoes ? Has Jazz ever agreed with , or praised Mr. Galvagno ? Jazz had voiced a strong protest about the conduct and considered Mr. Galvagno a loose canon, when he made racially motivated, and other unkind and provocative, and other unacceptable comments, way before he has risen to the "position of importance". Is it necessary to recall individual cases when there is a such an overwhelming evidence of top WDC members joining IDSF , lecturing, teaching and adjudicating as IDSF licenced judges ? Was it Ms. Hazel Fletcher, who was recently suspended by IDSF ( it does not matter if we agree or disagree with the action) ? Jazz considers Ms. Hazel a WDC icon. What was she doing at IDSF ? Does IDSF a hold on independent Professionals, or have they succeeded in putting a collar on some of these freelancing judges in order to pull on their leash to implement punishments and install, their controls ? Sounds drastic. It is not Jazz who pays licensing fees, attends the conferences and pledges faithfulness to IDSF. Someone has answered a question regarding whereabouts and the head office of WDC. It was suggested WDC is some arbitrary international organization floating/existing everywhere , all around the world. If that is the case, no wonder this arbitrary organisation, with a big sounding name does not care what their members do. Organisations do not care, people care. Who are the people representing WDC to examine whether they care or not ? This is exactly the reason the topic was raised. This is exactly why name of Italy was mentioned. Is that the reason why the respondent suggested WDC was not in England, Italy it was all over the place ? Real mystery. An illusive organisation which does not question / worry . care about their members loyalty, has no problem what their members do, if they support IDSF or not. Perhaps Jazz should have asked: What address for WDC would a lawyer must have if he wanted to send a friendly letter to WDC once the ":English" Professional competitors disappear ? Professionals make living off dance. Professionals seek gigs, employment , something which IDSF can offer and provide, and if the known WDC judges are approved as useful by IDSF , they may benefit from being invited more often than if they are found less useful. There was a thread about 'useful IDSF judges`. When you suggest that WDC have no problems at all with their members adjudicating, lecturing, and "supporting" IDSF events, that WDC do not need to worry about the loyalty of their members... why would you mention the CDF members, suggesting they had food in their faces ? What have CDF members miscalculated ? If they decided and chose to support IDSF, CADA and IF WDC has no problem with it , then of course CDDSC should have no problem with CDF member actions either, and as such there is no reason for all being good friends. Is that the case ? Do you wish to repeat you really believe that WDC and their national representatives have no problem with the loyalty of their members, or would you respond, that once a professional joins IDSF, WDC considers them persona-non-Grata, but care suggest mistakes and egg in the face ? If you know what you claim you know , at least be sincere. There is no need to apologize for feeling a bit let down and disappointed if your long time member seeks a job with someone you dislike, even your enemy, especially if you are not in a position and have right to complain, because your own rules allow such a behaviour. If WDC has no problem allowing their members do anything they want, why would you or WDC care if CDF members wish to support IDSF ? If CDF is not even recognized by WDC, why should WDC care ? Why would you criticize when noting the egg in face ? If WDC is not concerned with their members loyalty, why does Onyourtoes and others have a problem what CDF members do , and also what many other professionals , who seek employment and opportunity to earn living do, because dance is something they understand and are experts in ? Indeed. It is beyond Jazz's comprehension that an organization would not have any problem with their members supporting their enemies. It is beyond Jazz's comprehension that Onyourtoes would believe it and post it with a straight face. Jazz enjoys company of smart, sincere people, and while very brave will politely decline Onyourtoes invitation to party at Assen. Besides, Jazz will be ( not may be ) busy shopping for a new gown .
quicktime2 Joined on 31 Αυγ 2007 Total posts: 181	Re: How is WDC affected by the disappearance of the "english" Professional competitors ? Πέμπτη, 26 Φεβρουαρίου 2009 12:12 πμ To onyourtoes: I am seriously considering not replying to any of Jazz posts as a number of contributors have already stated they were doing. I think Sambatogo has it right on his Feb25 post on the Assen/WDC/ISDF thread. He wrote Sambatogo finds your (Jazz) whole mind set quite disturbed….and suggests she seek some serious medical help and intervention Reading your last few exchanges with Jazz I must admire your tenacity in trying to have a logical discussion with her. You're out of luck. That would require something that she does not possess. And although serious medical help may assist, it will be a while yet before the necessary kind of transplant will be availale She's excellent at gossip however.
jazz Joined on 07 Απρ 2005 Total posts: 444	Re: How is WDC affected by the disappearance of the "english" Professional competitors ? Πέμπτη, 26 Φεβρουαρίου 2009 3:41 πμ Another expert suggesting a serious medical help for Jazz ? Another poster using the word disturbed ? A coincidence ? Just too transparent. Just pat yourselves - should I say yourself - on the back. Or is it that imitation is considered a form of flattery ? "Another" poster ignoring the topic, more interested in Jazz ? Are you, or , are you not a folk interested in dance topic ? From your comments it appears you are more interested in medicine and Jazz's well being than How WDC is affected by........, and sound more and more as some sort of closely related paramedics . ( P.S. Great only in gossip ? If only you knew. )
onyourtoes Joined on 12 Φεβ 2007 Total posts: 657	Re: How is WDC affected by the disappearance of the "english" Professional competitors ? Πέμπτη, 26 Φεβρουαρίου 2009 7:48 πμ quicktime2 To onyourtoes: I am seriously considering not replying to any of Jazz posts as a number of contributors have already stated they were doing. ---- Thank you I had already reached my own conclusion that it was pointless as there was no rationality, so much illogical thinking, warped reasoning and twisting of both word and facts that there was little point in continuing the discussion. Sad really and especially when the person thinks they are so clever. At any moment I expected to be told any WDC member who coached an IDSF member had defected from the WDC camp. That is how ridiculous the arguments being presented had become. The entire topic was a nonsense as the WDC is not England and the disappearance of English Professional competitors will have no affect on the WDC a truly worldwide organisation. In addition the likes of Marcus and Karen Hilton. John Wood, Anne Gleave, Andrews Sinkinson, etc etc etc are going to be around for at least the next 30 years. Sane or Insane? Which sane person equates air crashes with failed IDSF exams and expulsions from tyranical, vindictive terrorised dance federations. jazz what would Sambatogo do if he faced real tragic scenarios such an aeroplane crash, expulsion of the family member from a reputable national dancesport organization, or failed IDSF adjudicators exam ? ----
jazz Joined on 07 Απρ 2005 Total posts: 444	Re: How is WDC affected by the disappearance of the "english" Professional competitors ? Πέμπτη, 26 Φεβρουαρίου 2009 5:24 μμ In addition the likes of Marcus and Karen Hilton. John Wood, Anne Gleave, Andrews Sinkinson, etc etc etc are going to be around for at least the next 30 years. Sane or Insane? Which sane person equates air crashes with failed IDSF exams and expulsions ( from tyranical, vindictive terrorised ))* dance federations. jazz what would Sambatogo do if he faced real tragic scenarios such an aeroplane crash, expulsion of the family member from a reputable national dancesport organization, or failed IDSF adjudicators exam ? ---- ) where ( tyranical, vindictive terrorised )* are predictable embelishments by the alert and always "on-his-toes" and not at all part of what was suggested. ---- Aeroplane crash, as much as a tragic occurrence , ( as correctly identified by "confused" Jazz ) does not necessarily result in loss of life. A recent landing of the air bus in Hudson River , NY, and the crash of the Turkish plane with all passengers surviving are just a few examples f tragedy with "happy" ending. Not everything is as gloomy as you suggest. You want to view the World in the most negative view, except of course the claimed worldwide organisation WDC , which you explain has nothing to do with England , while mentioning Marcus and Karen Hilton. John Wood, Anne Gleave, Andrews Sinkinson, etc etc etc - the legends , and true ambassadors of the British ballroom dance, or would you suggest they represent and care more for ballroom dance in Korea, Uganda ? If WDC is such a global entity , why bother mention the all British crew, and allowing them just 30 short years to be around ? This could be taken as an insult. The mentioned ballroom dance ambassadors will be around as long as ballroom dance is around, and Jazz suspect much longer. It will be the alert 'on your toes' and the many decades in ballroom experienced Sambatogo who may be around for few more years, but after a few years even alert "on-your -toes" may be "in-his-wheelchair", and a few years after "no-longer-around", even "buried-way-deep", with no memories left behind after Admin. decides to purge the insignificant posts from the archives of his well established and famous www.dancesportinfo.net to make space for the paying advertisers like Nike , IDSF and their many prosperous Professional IPDSC divisions. But congratulations, you have again succeeded to capture Jazz's attention, you alert, devil you. Cheer up ! Why could you not accept being wrong for a change and admit that not everyone is able of passing the IDSF adjudicators exam, not everyone is suitable to be licensed and not everybody is accepted. Failing IDSF exam can be indeed tragic and a great disappointment. It is also true that an expulsion of a dancer who hoped to make a career out of dance can be devastating, not just for the dancer, his/her partner, but also for the caring family members. Expulsion from a national organization may not end the promising career, but it certainly limits, and even cuts short, the dancers breadth of opportunities and participation, training and competing against his/her equal. In fact being sanctioned may be more disappointing, more tragic to the affected dancer then seeing on TV aircraft passengers climbing out of a damaged airbus, in the middle of Hudson River smiling and happy to be alive. The suggested sanctions are not only tragic for the person involved and the immediate family, they are also tragic for the dancers who see the result, the effect, and who themselves become fearful that they could end up the same way. If you see no parallels, you never will, just please do not claim , and explain to a child on the forum, that Onyourtoes stands for alert, ready with eyes wide open and "on-his-toes".