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Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ???


onyourtoes Joined on 12 Φεβ 2007 Total posts: 657	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Κυριακή, 14 Ιουνίου 2009 9:41 πμ This topic is like riding a Rocking Horse. Takes lots of energy but gets you nowhere Lets think. These couples who are getting these unexpected 10 marks. If no other judge is marking them then they are most unlikely to progress. If other judges are marking them then perhaps they deserve the marks! Are their teachers judging every time they compete? That would be amazing. If they do not get marked only when teacher and friend are judging do not come down to hard because they get an unexpected result every so often. Probably helps to keep them putting money into dancing - and we all need that. On the other hand if at other times they do get recalled when teacher is not judging they may be worth it. Lets face it. Everyone is going to get a really bad result at some time and it is part of a dancing career. Even the best have had it happen. One of the couples of whom I am very fond got a terrible result in Blackpool Amateur Latin not being recalled from 2nd qualifying. In the Rising Stars they were in the final 50 and had made the Under 21 semi the previous year. I posted the following in another topic. It is from the World Games web site and explains about judging dancesport. Proper technique is the foundation in DanceSport. At the competitive level, however, athletes are expected to combine their technique with elements of athleticism, artistry and aesthetics. Now technique can be assessed but artistry and aesthetics? It is exactly as Quicktime2 has stated several times that is entirely personal. You cannot attack and penalise someone because they have different tastes to you. Dancing is not sport where the clock or the measure or the weight decides. The very worst thing for DanceSport is for people to constantly carp, complain and give the impression that every judge is corrupt and every result suspect.
think of me Joined on 05 Αυγ 2005 Total posts: 288	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Κυριακή, 14 Ιουνίου 2009 1:50 μμ onyourtoes This topic is like riding a Rocking Horse. Takes lots of energy but gets you nowhere Lets think. These couples who are getting these unexpected 10 marks. If no other judge is marking them then they are most unlikely to progress. If other judges are marking them then perhaps they deserve the marks! The very worst thing for DanceSport is for people to constantly carp, complain and give the impression that every judge is corrupt and every result suspect. ---- Just cannot forget the thrilling sensation of riding that Rocking Horse ... May I ask: Is it not Webminder who repeatedly states in this thread, and keeps correcting you, Onyourtoes that the complain is about a few, judges not the most , and not all ? May I ask: Why you, Onyourtoes keep trying to correct Webminder, twisting the subject suggesting this is about all judges ? No one suggested that every judge is corrupt, and that every result is suspect, and I see no people who constantly "carp" about the same. In fact webminder has returned several times and corrected you. If what you say is the worst thing for Dancesport, Dancesport must be in a pretty good shape, since what you suggest is the worst does not exist and the worst is of your making and repeatedly suggested and brought up by you. The idea of some judges voting/ judging their favourite is compelling. While recalling a rocking horse, others recall common statements/ sayings : " Do me a favour " " I owe you a favour " " Return a favour". From that it follows: You do me a favour and I owe you a favour until I return it. Is it just possible *some* teachers are so appreciative of their student's business and loyalty, the same thing which helps them make living and contributes to maintain the standard of their accustomed lifestyles and feel they owe a favour ? ( answer: Yes ) Would be there not less dispute about results in Dancesport and about judging if the word "Favourite" replaced the word "Best" ? ( answer: Yes, while some would be curious who the Best dancers are, and how they compare with the most Favourite , nevertheless ) Even Webminder would likely accept the winnings, or higher competition placements of more favourite dancers. Lets stop creating and then repeating what was not said, and building up on it for the benefit of rocking a horse, or to have the last word. Webminder raised an important concern. One sided ? Perhaps. He/she thanked everyone and has left , I see no need to needle or mistreat/ ridicule the messenger ..... the reason why I make this my last rebuttal here. We all agreed that selecting the best dancers is difficult, since there are no standards, everyone uses different criteria, and there is also an affect of the voiced incompetency and unavoidable bias. I believe the suggestion that teachers should not adjudicate their students and that there should be just pure judges, who do not teach dance is compelling but not practical, as no person accepting the job/position of a pure judge could make a living by just waiting to be called to adjudicate = stand all day on his/her legs in far away places, unless the organizers could guarantee much larger financial rewards. Who could guarantee these specialists 40 hours work week ? Which Organizer could afford them ? Further more one could not expect these "specialists/pure judges" to attend courses to further improve their knowledge of dancesport to be able to deliver what is expect of them, unless they were paid to do so. So this is not practical. I believe this wooden horse has been beaten to death, no need to kick it, why not accept the concept of voting for the "Favorite Dancers" ? If this new concept (standard) is acceptable to over 40 million American dance competition TV viewers who call in every week to judge their favorite during "So you think you can dance", results which are acceptable to many more millions , if not all, who watch the program around the World, why could it not be accepted / adopted by a few thousand involved and disagreeing with the concept of judging dancesport, those who complain but accept existence of bias as a norm, and place the measurement in the hands of judges who use in fact a form of a democratic process of voting in their "best" based on majority vote - reffered to as a skating system ? If we could agree on this one, adopt the use of Most Favorite dancers, just as the millions around the World have, with no dispute, perhaps the dancesport World could become a less "rocky" place. When you accept voting in your favorites, and realize judging/marking dancesport need not be "Bull #@!" think of me .
onyourtoes Joined on 12 Φεβ 2007 Total posts: 657	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Κυριακή, 14 Ιουνίου 2009 2:52 μμ Think of Me. Aah ! I see you just like webminder decided to return to the topic. It is very unfortunate you so seldom make a contribution without rancour, personal comments and distortion but no matter lets stick with the topic. If it is only a few and such a small minority of poor (or whatever) judges there really cannot be a problem certainly insufficient to cause the consternation which created this topic , drive people away from competitions, nor the reason to prevent dancesport being in the Olympics. Of course there are others who have contributed to this forum apart from webminder and onyourtoes and they have expressed opinions upon which which I have commented. Fair enough to me. You yourself wrote think of me Might as well have the audience declare the winners by waving numbers in the air from the front lines. Some "judges)" get away, and are allowed to get away, with a murder now a days . By their actions these corrupted judges* have disqualified themselves from being "judges", they simply became selfish idol / champion makers, promoters and businessmen who abuse their authority, who let down their employers and those who enjoy sport of dance. ---- Favourite? Well yes if that turns you on go with that idea. You could save having Adjudicators at all, no need for people to have knowledge or pass examinations. Ability need play no part at all. Couples need not work on technique. Each round can be judged by the audience as you wrote. Get a bit messy deciding who will be in the next round but why worry about that or perhaps do not even have rounds let everyone dance once and the audience just mark their favourite number on a paper and those be added up and the placings announced. I can think of a young Russian couple who would probably have won countless world championships by now. We could even have some 70 year old actor with a 21 year old beauty as Latin World Champions because they were "favourites" and dancing ability is unimportant. We see this many times on TV shows with viewer voting. In the last Eurovision DanceContest there was a panel of 4 IDSF "expert" judges and an audience vote. The audience vote was totally different to the IDSF judges and completely changed the final positions. Favourites? Many couples will have no incentive to dance away from their town because elsewhere the locals will pack the hall for their favourite to win. Also if the organiser has their own connections anyone else better stay away because it is their favourite who is going to win. Hosting a World Champ will probably mean that country will produce the World Champion. Great for dancesport!!! Make it very difficult for people like me who certainly have favourites (people I really enjoy watching for various reasons) but are prepared to concede there are better dancers more deserving of a higher placing but then your scheme is not meant for those with principles. I think it would be massively unfair to force a judge (if you had them) to mark their "favourite" rather than the couple they felt were "the best". You believe this is the answer and above reproach. As I say if that sounds more appealing to you you keep on with your "Favourite" theme. Now I am done with all this bull#@! . I just do not have the energy to keep rocking away.
sambatogo Joined on 29 Αυγ 2007 Total posts: 280	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Κυριακή, 14 Ιουνίου 2009 6:07 μμ Onyourtoes you gave a very good answer, and you are a very inteligent person in our opinion!
will2 Joined on 20 Ιουν 2008 Total posts: 27	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Δευτέρα, 15 Ιουνίου 2009 1:14 πμ Onyourtoes: "Now I am done with all this bull#@! . I just do not have the energy ...." _________________ Poor thing. Invited himself, tried trash the party, and now exhausted and victimized . Oh From a sitting down position I have been observing the developments here, and agree with OYT that favourite would not work, but unable to trot along and nod like sambatogo that OYT is unusually intelligent, in fact brilliant, while kissing up to him ? Wheelchair dancers have favorites too , and they certainly are not the best. The bias has existed, exists, and shall exist, unfairness exists, who better knows than those with a handicap. The bull#@! is here to stay, we can just rumble, but not too loud and not too obviously or we may fall out of favour , and be judged as not as good as those who remain in favour, those who will always benefit from those who favour them. Like in the wheelchair, going round and round. Fair ? No. But be happy you are healthy and that you need to think about not forgetting to grease the spokes of your new legs. Life is good. Sambatogo stop humbling yourself it is embarassing. In the past you yourself made several statements of your own making, what happened since, has your association done nothing newsworthy ? What happened to the propaganda ?
daniella22 Joined on 27 Δεκ 2008 Total posts: 6	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Δευτέρα, 15 Ιουνίου 2009 2:11 μμ will2 like you I am going to make an off topic post. Unlike yours mine will not be bitter, very rude and personal. I only want to say I find it hard to believe how much you edited your post and totally changed the content. Not very credible. By the way I think this topic from start has been, what do you call it , ?%&???#?? Good though that there are some who know a lot more about what it takes to be an adjudicator and do a good job.
ricardo Joined on 19 Δεκ 2008 Total posts: 9	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Δευτέρα, 15 Ιουνίου 2009 3:57 μμ daniella22 Good though that there are some who know a lot more about what it takes to be an adjudicator and do a good job. ---- Daniela22, you are dead on the topic, and may I join you in expressing my wish that there would be many more, of those who know and who also practice what they know and do a good job as adjudicators. I believe majority are , and what you referred to and complicated as ?%&???#?? can be eradicated if Professional Associations take a firm stand against the unfortunate and on and off reoccuring bull #@! Will they, who knows? Where there is Will there is a Way ? ( not to confuse with the wheeling Will2)
sambatogo Joined on 29 Αυγ 2007 Total posts: 280	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Δευτέρα, 15 Ιουνίου 2009 6:34 μμ will2, Sambatogo is off topic by replying to you. We did not say that onyourtoes is "unusually intelligent" but merely intelligent. If what sambatogo says on this forum is properganda. Then so be it. And therfore what you and all else says too, is as well in that case! If saying that we agree with onyourtoes is 'kissing up to him". We see nothing wrong with that. It is sad that it irritates you so. Sambatogo is never afraid to give credit where it is due, nor to say when we dissagree. That what this forum is about. So get over it will2!!
goldfinger Joined on 13 Μαρ 2009 Total posts: 16	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Πέμπτη, 25 Ιουνίου 2009 9:07 μμ Are you going to fight somehow against the politics? Dance Expert: "I think that the only thing that can kill the politic is the dance itself. If we get the better dance and if we are better than others... And only the best one wins. We have to educate the judges more. The development of dancing is not possible without educating them. Otherwise dancing begins developing backwards." Experts know well about corruption and the incompetency they see gloom and doom for dance if judges do not smarten up. ( Not all judges - just the few rotten ones who infect, and sicken everyone around ) It follows: If judging does not improve dance will suffer. If dance suffers it cannot become better and the politics shall flourish, while dancing will be on a down-spiral , "developing backwards".
gabriela_S Joined on 09 Μαϊ 2009 Total posts: 6	Re: Does it need to be bull #@! ??? Σάββατο, 27 Ιουνίου 2009 3:19 μμ Pink Unicorn has written: "It is true that we do not want to get in to any politics!!! We just want to dance and not to have to take any sides!! My daughter and partner do enjoy competing abroad because we feel that the dancing is been judged on the day, and not judged for who you are or who you are not!!!!! She has returned with her partner few weeks ago from Spain where they won the Int Ballroom and made the final in Latin in Platja Daro. She is competing this weekend in the Irish Open where she will face more international couples. They are been considered by their teachers one of the best Junior couple in England but yet can't make finals in EADA comps! I let you wonder why!!" ---------------------- @Pink Unicorn, it is the same everywhere, the success , or a demise of the dancers you describe depends on the decision of judges. Unfortunately, and your story is a testimony that dancesport bull#@! has permeated dancesport . The couple in your story has obviously run into one or more judges whose "bull#@! influences their (probably better ) judgement, resulting in lower total recalls and inability to reach the ( apparently ) deserved higher placement. ___________________ @Goldfinger: was it not Allan Thornsberg who pointed his finger at the dancesport judges and made the statement during his recent interview - also kindly re-printed by dancesportinfo.com ? My dancing has improved , according to those who know us and about dance, since we have concentrated on freedom of movement, expression of music through our social dance, not worried about the obvious bull#@! stopped chasing the heard of "dancesport competitors" in order to impress the judges who could not be impressed ( discovered much later by other than personal benefit their marks would bring to their own pockets, or would strengthen their influence- regardless of dis reputation they bring upon themselves, since they appear not having a shame, they are just on the take, some with the audacity to complain their inclusion in sporting events may be boycotted ). Thank you Mr. Thornsberg for mentioning it. Without proper judging dancesport shall remain on a decline - not just in Russia, everywhere . Of course judges need be educated, but even a laymen recognizes good dancing, more than education , judges need to be policed by the scrutineers, be held accountable, face disciplinary action for bull#@! ing and bullying dancers.